In this next video in the CX Club series, Ian Williams from Jericho and Christopher Brooks from Clientship CX look at leadership in terms of the way it relates to customer experience.
The specific topics in this video are immersing the leadership team in the world of the customer, phasing of the CX programme and prioritisation of issues identified
Ian: Welcome back to part two of the CX club video on leadership and how it relates to customer experience. I’m back in the room again with my old mucker Christopher Brooks.
Christopher: Ha ha. Hi Ian.
Ian: Hello! How you doing?
Christopher: Yeah, and well thank you. Yeah, very well.
Ian: Okay, so I’m going to have to ask another calibration question…
Christopher: Right…
Ian: So, going back to childhood I suppose, for me. The Flumps or the Thundercats?
Christopher: Ah, the Flumps.
Ian: Yeah!
Christopher: Yeah, it’s the Flump’s for me. I’ve got such happy memories…
(Sing theme tune together) ha ha ha!
Christopher: I did like the ThunderCats, but I’d always pick the Flumps.
Ian: I agree! Listen,…
Christopher: My soft side is coming out…
Ian: This whole thing is supposed to be themed around Fight Club. We should have each other in a headlock or something…
Christopher: You should be dressed as SheRa… Ha ha ha… Can you see why did there?
Ian: Yeah, and you would make a great Skeletor… You would, exactly!
Ian: Okay so we need to talk about the next three subjects within the area of leadership. Those three subjects… I’m looking at my prompt again… are leadership immersion, phasing the program and issue prioritisation.
So on to the first subject of leadership immersion. And this is where I found this, and I don’t know what you found as well, is that sometimes you write a business case, you become a trusted adviser within the organisation and you say to them “okay, customer expenses a good thing to do”. And they and they go “yeah, yeah, customer experience, I’m 100% behind it, I really, really believe in it. And they do, they genuinely believe the customer experience is the right thing to do.
But then you might walk away from a boardroom with all the senior people in their and have individual meetings, and when you have their individual meetings with a different functional leaders, you say okay in order to achieve this, what we might need to do, is we need some of your budget, we need some of your headcount, and whilst we are undertaking this particular project you may see a drop-off in operational performance for a relatively short period of time. When you present that situation to people, although they bought into the idea of CX, when it comes to the prioritisation of day-to-day performance versus this new customer experience transformation, very often customer experience falls by the wayside. So you have to go through a process of immersing the leaders within the experience of the customer. Have you got examples where you have to go about doing that?
Christopher: Well, I mean, I think… I’ve profited from other’s mistakes. If that makes any… I member with one particular pace, where the organisation was in a bad place in terms of its satisfaction scores, it was kind of, it was monitored, it was sat in a bad place. And a large consultancy came in and said, whispered in the CEOs ear “this is easy”, they didn’t understand customer experience, I think that they even confused with CSR to be honest, but they didn’t understand it properly and they said, and I took a great big gasp, you could be number one in three months.
Ian: Oh gosh…
Christopher: And the CEO went out publicly and said, “I think we’ll be number one in three months. We’ll turn this around.” And you kind of go “wow!”. I mean it’s just… And so, now…
Ian: Cultural change in five minutes…
Christopher: I mean it just…. Half the business just kind of went, “wow, that’s impressive, we don’t know what this thing is, we are going to be great at this”, and the other half “oh my God!”, so the trust was lost there. So I think that kind of leader immersion, they’ve got to really understand the steps you go through. I mean, I’m always impressed with six Sigma transformation programs, where the CEO kind of says, can we do a mentoring program alongside, as I’ve got to understand, to your point, what’s going to happen to my business as we transform here, whether there are particular directions you can go. And, it’s important, we’ve identified that there are 25 different customer operating models, and you kind of go to a lot of people and say “tell me what yours is”, and they’ve got no idea, but actually only five of those are successful. And one of two of those actually make you look like you’re a mean customer experience organisation, but what you’re actually saying is “I’m not investing customer experience, so don’t expect anything”. It’s a lean model.
Ian: I’m going to jump in there, because I had a bit of a disagreement at one point with the very famous Mary Portis, because she took a flash mob into Primark on… near Marble Arch, and she said “we demand more people on the shop floor in order to deliver a better service to customers.
And my argument was, “well, no, actually Primark are delivering a great customer experience”, and she was “well, what are you talking about? You going to a Primark, there are clothes everywhere, et cetera et cetera. And I said “well, yeah that their promise to the customer is very, very cheap high street fashion, disposable high street fashion, and part of that model is up about operating on low margins, pile it high, sell it cheap kind of thing, and unfortunately, part of that is that when you go in store, you can’t have lots of headcount. If, all of a sudden, Primark suddenly doubled their staff install, what would happen is their cost would go up, their prices would go up and they’d no longer…
Christopher: They’d no longer be Primark!
Ian: They’d no longer be meeting their promise. Of course, Primark could do things their customer service better, but not necessarily putting people through the door. So that lean model that the you talk about, of customer experience, those organisations, I would argue they might not be delivering great customer service, but it doesn’t actually mean that they’re not delivering a great customer experience.
Christopher: You know, if it was a conversation, it would be a case of “here is the contract, here are the terms. Yes, I get that completely. So, you understand that you’re not going to get anything from us? You know, this means we don’t have lots of people sitting in the returns department. You know that? Yes, I know that… And off you go.
Ian: Ryanair, Flybe…
Christopher: It’s the kind of model they kind of use use, and we, unfortunately, can jump between Tory Burch and Bond Street and go into Primark and go “why can’t you…?”. Well, of course you can’t!
I worked with a company in the gaming sector and when I started they went “we want to be… We want to have the service design principles and the customer experience ethics of Porsche. Wow! Yeah, let’s go for this. So I kind of said “great, okay, well, when we come to do the workshop, we’ll kind of look and see where you should be, and we sat down and I said “right, so I understand you want to kind of be like Porsche.”, “Yeah, it’s a sleak, it’s beautiful, everything is fabulous.”, “Okay, so, the first thing the you have to commit to is at least five years bonus sacrifice, because it is an extremely expensive model to achieve”. And he went “whoa, hang on!”.
And we ended up, it’s quite amusing, with a positioning, which worked for the sector, because the sector had such a low bar, … One step ahead. We stayed one step ahead of your customers, one step ahead of your competitors. And that worked. We were always improving the experience just slightly more than other people did.
Ian: And to be perfectly honest, sometimes that’s a better model than trying to be significantly ahead of the competition, because if you’re staying one step ahead, you’re keeping an eye on the ball, and if you’re behaving in an agile way you’re more likely to stay ahead of the game.
Christopher: It was right for the time, and you know these things kind of do evolve. And that’s the other thing is to remember, I guess, that if you’re a leader in that position, this is a forever gesture…
Ian: Yeah…
Christopher: This is the project. This isn’t a… When you say transformation, it feels like it’s an end. But actually we’re always transforming.
Ian: Transformation and strategy never stop.
Christopher: From this point onwards, we going to be getting on. And sometimes, as a leader, you’ve got to be aware of saying to people, “we’re going on a journey”. I work with a brilliant recruitment consultancy called CX Talent, and I think that that the only…
Ian: Oh, Jo Van Reimsdyke…
Christopher: Fabulous people. Really understand customer experience people. And really are able to find the right fit. But we did a piece of work kind of identifying, “well, customer experience person comes, in stays forever.”, “no!”. What’s really interesting, actually, is the sort of characteristics and the tenacity that you need at the start of a project, when you’re trying to muscle through and get to the trading table is very different to the finesse and care you need further down the line, the diplomatic employee…
Ian: You might need a maverick at the beginning, but you need somebody with a little bit more…
Christopher: Yeah! And it’s no different, I’ve worked with pensions companies where you have someone come in gung ho first of all, who’ll blazen through and take out all the inefficiencies, but are they going to command the respect of people to then say let’s rebuild? Of course not! That’s their role, and they move on. And customer experience is no different. To kind of say “I’ll come in and be here forever”. Well actually, then you’ve got a world of one organisation. And one of the things you mentioned earlier about working in different sectors, quite often we will find it an advantage for a client to say “so, you’ve never worked in our sector?”. No. Fabulous! You can bring so much knowledge that we don’t have from outside in other sectors.
Ian: And I’ve had this before when I’ve gone into organisation and pitched in a sector where I’ve never done work before, and it’s really healthy and encouraging to hear them say “no, we actually don’t want anybody from our sector, as we need a new view view on it.
In terms of leadership immersion, just a sort of close that off, were looking at the board by the way because we have written the subjects down there. In terms of leadership immersion, one of the things I’ve identified and you’ve kind of spoken about this to a certain degree already, is that you have to immerse the leaders within the world of the customer. So one of the things the you did, I know you did the tour of the mini factory, which is about putting somebody in an environment and say “okay, let’s try and look at the world in a different way, let’s try and look at things from the customer’s perspective, and then there are other processes such as frontline boss and undercover boss, where somebody goes in there. There is of course…
Christopher: Have you ever tried parallel journey mapping?
Ian: So, what’s that one?
Christopher: I did this with a start-up. I mean, you can kind of do this with an established company, but with a start-up, your journey map, what is it? And they’re like “we don’t have… we don’t know what these maps are going to look like because we’ve never had customers go through them”. So we actually had two rooms, and a group of customers that had been identified as really wanting this product and they were on a waiting list, it was a technology product, and then we’ve got business. And actually we went “go!”. And we started to map the different steps as we went through to see their perception of how customers would want the journey to work, versus what the company wanted.
Ian: Did you provide them with the same framework, or did you…?”
Christopher: Yeah it was quite loose…, it was a standard customer journey mapping framework, but of course we didn’t have on the customers ones KPIs and things like that, but we did have things like customer’s expectations, we did have “what you think you will remember in these moments of truth… What might you remember many years afterwards about this particular relationship?”. And what was really interesting because it was a start-up it was technology was that understandably their perception about what was going to look like didn’t really mirror what customers necessarily felt would be of the greatest value to them, that they were able to build it as they went . So they were able, the technology guys at the back, “we can do that”, so they kind of modified it as they went along. It was a great exercise, and it really, kind of, helped, from day one, the owners of the business to understand exactly how different customers were going to view it, and also for start-ups okay you can do that thing but nobody else can, but I still want all the standard stuff. Ah! But that’s hard grunt work! Yeah, because a car , I still want the wheels on it, I still want the brakes to work,
Ian: Hygiene factors have to be in place…
Christopher: The fact the you got a fridge and it is brilliant, but but I need… Oh! So all this other stuff… Yes, absolutely it has to have. Sorry, I did interject there…
Ian: No, no! Interjection though is always good. You discover a whole bunch of stuff. If we stick to the topic too much, we don’t actually learn anything. But there are lots of different ways from an immersion perspective we spoke about this mystery shopping there is what I call Customer VoxPops, we did that in one project, where we actually video recorded customers telling the organisation what they felt about the organisation, and because the customers weren’t there in front of the person, they were just looking into a camera giving their opinions, and we play that back to the senior management team, and some of them were in tears by the end of it, because they realised just how badly customers felt that they were being treated. So, there are lots of different ways the leaders can be immersed in the process, so that you can get them to the point where they’re saying “you know what, irrespective of the business case, irrespective becoming a trusted adviser and all this stuff, we have to do this, we have to do this forget all the logic any more, we just have to go ahead and do it. So there are ways of being able to get there, which is great.
Ian: Last two subjects. Next one is phasing the program. Now, Sean Risebrow, who is now at BUPA, this is something that he has spoken about before, with work that he did with Virgin Media and with Fidelity.
Christopher: Yeah, I saw him talk about Fidelity.
Ian: He’s an amazing speaker, I really enjoyed listening to what he’s got to say. And one of the arguments he makes is the phasing the program is really, really important, because what you’re doing at the beginning of the program, and this comes back to the point that you made about the guy at the beginning of the process isn’t necessarily the same guy that you want at the end of the process. Building faces around the project is really, really important for several different reasons. Is this something that you’ve come across and you’ve worked with?
Christopher: Absolutely. I think you know sort of it’s really important to recognise the stresses and strains that the organisation is under. It’s not like everything stops. BAU will still happen, you know you get to the end of the quarter and it won’t be where you want to be. There will be other changes that will happen. There may be changes to personnel, new structure, new technology change things as you go along, and none of that stops just because customer experience is getting the light shone on to it, so I think you have to be able to break it up, you have to make sure that as well, you really get that bank of insight and knowledge you need first of all. I mean, one of the areas I found really difficult to work with customer experience is kaizen, the kind of mentality where you get 80% of the way there, and that’s enough and off you go, whereas what I found is if you hang around for the 20%, that’s where the gold comes from. But that doesn’t mean the have to get everything perfect first time. This kind of a continuous improvement model that I’ve always kind of worked on it’s broken, make it work, make it better, make it best. Kind of get that… That the evolution of going through things, so be happy the you got something to the next level, because actually there’s a danger that you create, in some parts of the organisation, a disproportionately excellent customer experience that the other part of the business can’t deliver upon.
Ian: Can’t keep up with…
Christopher: You know, so you might turn around and say, this is really good “we can actually get to you your product in six hours” . Open! Fabulous! And if I send it back and get a return of money?”. “I think it’s about 7 to 10 days” and that’s like whoa!
Ian: Interestingly, if you improve part of the customer experience, but you don’t improve the overall customer experience, in many ways, it can give the customer an worse overall customer experience, because you’ve raised expectations with one part of the experience, and then you’ve not kept up with the expectations during the other parts. So, I would argue that there are some times if the organisation can’t keep up, sometimes it’s better doing nothing than it is just trying to do one thing in one area and raising expectations too much
Christopher: I mean, customer experience is… The two things for me about customer experience is it demands consistency and if you can overlay that with authenticity, you’ve got the magic formula. 100%
So yes, you’ve got to phase it, you’ve got to kind of recognise that everyone has got to move along with you, this is the point we surround leadership immersion earlier, if you just accelerate forward, all you’re forced to do is to create stress and embarrassment and discomfort and possibly revenue issues, possibly disengagement from parts of the business, so you’ve got to phase it as you go through. There is, I guess, when running or introducing a transformation programme you’ve got kind of your discovery, your design, development phases you kind of work through, but I think more about recognising the organisation is evolving and therefore you’ve got to identify the sorts of things that you’re taking through. I have this conversation actually, should you, and we would are particular part of an operation for a company, and they are not delivering and the actual branded experience is almost compensating, its providing kind of a veneer over it, and that’s kind of getting kind of recognition…
Ian: That happens with Apple as well, often their product isn’t always as good as the promise…
Christopher: So, the conversation that we had yesterday was, well, do I continue to do that, or do I worry that at some point, the crack will show and then we’ll expose just how broken things are, or do we actually, I think this was such a mature conversation from this particular CX leader, do I sacrifice my budget to operations, so they can actually get up to speed with where they need to get to. And, I think, in terms of leadership, see that’s the sort of conversation around the table with others you need to be having. It’s not a land grab, it’s actually… Operations, until you get there, until we can make the brakes work, were not selling this car…
Ian: And that’s the right way of looking at customer experience, because as we said before, experience is delivered by every single part of the organisation so, you know, surrendering budget and giving it to other functions within the business, in many ways, it’s breaking down the silos, it’s making things happen that…
Christopher: You say silos. I mean, did you find that still is one of the biggest issues in kind of customer experience management, the silo mentality?
Ian: Yeah, absolutely. Which is why you have to start with the leadership team, because… It’s all about land grabs, it’s all about power the top of the business. And, very often they’re thinking so much about arguments that they have with each other, that nobody is thinking about customers. In my experience, going through that leadership immersion piece is really, really important, because all of a sudden people start looking at each other over the table and nodding and shrugging, and going “oh yeah, I’ve been that difficult person in the past.”
Christopher: But in terms of the phasing of things, it’s interesting that what you’ve said about the phasing and making sure that everybody is up to speed, the initial phases that Sean Risebrow has spoken about and I’ve been using this as well, is first of all I know that it’s important we focus upon the 20% not just the 80% as you spoke about from the kaizen perspective, but what often what I found is that within the first one or two phases, if you can deliver quick wins, it does help because everybody in the organisation is starting to buy in.
But, one of the difficult things that might have to happen in the first two phases of the project, is making some difficult decisions and that might include making redundancies and negative things, because sometimes organisations can be so badly damaged that, you know we talk about customer experience and employee experience and how they’re inextricably linked and we have to give our employees a great experience in order to deliver a good customer experience, but sometimes employees look at the organisation and they know that it’s broken. And then they know that there can have to be major changes and that redundancies might happen, and a few people might need to be sacrificed for the greater good. And that is a very counterintuitive and difficult conversation to have, but quick wins, doing the difficult things, getting to standard, getting to… getting ahead of the game and then finally getting to world class, which I think is similar to the model that Sean Risebrow has spoken about. Phasing it in that way, because each of those different stages you need to be focusing on different objectives, you different types of people, you need different types of structure et cetera et cetera. So, from my perspective, if you try and do all at once, it’s just…
And there is a danger that you parade may be a satisfaction score, you’ve come top of the chart, and you push that out there, because that then says to me as a consumer, you’re brilliant and you go “no, no, no. We’re getting there. That’s only one particular aspect we are really good at.” You got a be very careful about that projection, because then if I am thinking brilliant, well forgive me but give me the Disney experience every time now. And “no, we didn’t mean it like that, we just wanted to demonstrate internally that we doing quite well”.
Ian: And the thing is if you deliver far ahead of expectations you can’t do that consistently, the problem is that you raise expectations and you can’t continue delivering on that. That happen with Apple, I think when they launched the iPhone 4 and the iPhone 4S. And the iPhone 4 and the iPhone 4S were so significantly better than the iPhone 3, that people were wowed by it, and then all of a sudden when the iPhone 5 came out it was only a tiny bit better than the iPhone 4 and that created enormous problems for Apple, because they weren’t shifting the paradigms at all,and there was enormous dissatisfaction from customers as well.
Christopher: That phasing thing you talk about, I mean I’m pretty sure everyone would agree, but it be good to get your view that, actually getting to world-class… Is getting to world-class a realistic ambition for some organisations?
Ian: No, for some organisations it’s wrong.
Christopher: One step ahead was enough, but I’m sitting there and maybe my job is an online retailer for car batteries? Is it important for me to be world-class in car battery world?
Ian: It depends what world-class means as well, because Aldi would hardly call themselves a world-class retailer, but they’ve got an amazing business model, and you could argue that in some ways it is world-class, but it’s not the best ever retail experience you’re going to have as an individual.
Christopher: Well, we had this discussion the other day, that actually I could say you’re the number one webinar producer of customer experience content, which you clearly are, and that’s it!
Ian: Ha ha ha…
Christopher: That could be… That’s your badge.
Ian: That’s one going to be in the future.
Christopher: That’s what you’re going to be in the future. So actually, you can define world-class… If you wannabe world-class, be world-class!
Ian: But you quite right though, world-class is not always the thing that some organisations should be measuring themselves against
Christopher: And up in that space…. Referring to Prof Klauss, you kind of ask what it is again, he would say there is only 3% of the world’s brands who are world-class, and that is the optimum ROI that that organisation can achieve for the sector it’s in and the investment it’s making to customer experience. So that is really a scientific and award-winning definition of what world-class could be, and that’s a very small club, a very small club indeed. So if you going to say, I want to be world-class then you are you going to go out and say “we didn’t get there”. You didn’t need to say, I’m this year going to do an awful lot of running. I saw a fabulous fund raiser the other day called Jamie MacDonald, who ran 200 marathons across Canada. Wow. Now I’m not gonna do that, I’m just gonna run, I’m gonna run as much as I possibly can.
Ian: I’m going to run the bath, that’s what I’m going to do..
Christopher: I’m going to run as much as I possibly can, and that, you know, will be the benchmark that I’m going to set myself. I can say that I’ll do 200, and then I’m going to fail. So, I think, understanding how to quantify and position it and the message that that gives off internally in terms of do we believe we can do this, is this the same company the you and I are worrying about how, holding it all together here. So it’s very important…
Ian: Got to be realistic haven’t you?
Christopher: Can I get the advantage of posing the last question to you, the privilege, is that all right?
Ian: Yes please go ahead
Christopher: So, the last question I see on the list is “how do you prioritise customer experience issues?” So is this issues and improvements?’
Ian: So from my perspective… Thank you very much for posing the question to me. From my perspective, this is a key leadership issue. So, you’ve already made the decision to do a programme, you’ve gone through a customer journey mapping exercise, which has identified… the way that we work is that we identify pain points, moments of truth, commercial opportunities and wow opportunities. And I’ve had conversations with various different people like Alan Pennington who says I don’t like Wow opportunities, it’s a horrible word, but wow is basically an overall phrase that means getting ahead of customer expectations, but you come up with…
And when we did a Customer Journey Mapping exercise recently with an airline, we came up with about 400 ideas that came out of the customer journey mapping exercise. For leadership, they then need to go, okay, which of these 400 are we then going to focus on, because you might build a transformation programme.
So the process that we go through at Jericho is to sit down with the client and say, “okay, well, we need to look at each of these individual issues according to how difficult are they to implement versus how much impact, positive or negative, do they have on the organisation? So, those things that have been identified that are really easy to implement and have significant impact go right to the top of the list, and those that have very very little impact and they are very difficult to do properly end up falling off the bottom of the list. So, that’s the way that we’ve gone through the issue privatisation process. What about yourself?
Christopher: Well, the way we do it depends on the client’s investment into understanding what matters most to the customer. So, if you understand what changes… I alluded to this earlier… If you know what changes behaviour, so I was go that way but the experience means I’m gonna go this way, you can measure the actual shift in share of category, so you can actually say we will gain this much share of category, convert that into a commercial value and that becomes the ranking for what matters most your customers, you get that. And on the other axis we put in what matters most to the company.
I think customer experience isn’t there to set the targets, the organisation sets that, of course that’s part of the discussion, but the organisation will say, we need to increase renewals by 14%, we need to lower claims by 12% expenditure, whatever those items are, they’re what matters most the organisation. And, like yourself, the things in the bottom left but don’t bother company, that don’t bother customers, can we understand why we are doing these please? And sometimes, quite often, there you go, there’s your expenditure saving, done that one already.
And then you’ve got different areas, you’ve got your things that matter to customers but don’t matter to the organisation. Well you’ve got improve these things, because these matter to these customers or you’ve got to realise that you’re recruiting the wrong customers, you’ve got to think about them…
Ian: Absolutely and that’s a really significant issue, some people talk about losing customers, because you’re not delivering what customers want. Then you’ve got to ask yourself okay, if you changed what you deliver in order to meet what customers want, are you sticking to your competencies, and at the end of the day, if what the customer wants isn’t, or what some of the customers want is not part of your core competence, would you be better off just pointing that customer in a different direction?
Christopher: Is probably not a conversation for this one, it’s an interesting conversation around the share of category because if someone is buying five shops a week from Asda and someone else is buying one… five shops, but only one from Asda, they’re choosing to go to others, then the way the behavioural model would work, is to say these people are five times more important, this voice, these people come to us all the time so what we’re doing at the moment is actually working for these people, but it’s not working for these people they’re choosing to go somewhere else. And you might go “well, we need to figure out how to get them over.” Well, the ones you’ll get over are those that value what you’re doing here already better and I think that sometimes the customer experience is not about changing the organisation, it’s actually about bringing out what they’re really, really good at. So therefore, the last place which is this really matters most to us and this matters most of the organisation, hanging the organisation, sing about it, wow, if you’re going to build a signature experience, build it in this course a corner. This is what you’re great at. As far as your customers. And what your customers want and what your organisation is driving for. So, focus your attention here.
Direct Line did that very well a few years ago, when they can realise that what customers really vowed was the claims process…
Ian: Yes of course, with all insurance, that’s the…
Christopher: So what you then do, is that you give people an essence of that claims experience without the claim. So that’s what matters most, reassurance, reassurance that actually, should things go wrong, you’ll deliver it for me without actually going through the claims process…
Ian: I think that Hiscox did something very, very similar as well…
Christopher: Yes, we did a piece with them, yeah…
So, and that’s the thing is, to kind of land in that. So, not that dissimilar, it’s about understanding what we can get out, of course you need the “yeah, that’s really hard, we’re not ever doing that”, so you need that, how much effort and energy. I think the other thing as well, which both of us would include or bring out would be how disruptive to the business would it be?
Ian: Absolutely!
Christopher: You know because if it’s a case of “well, that will work, but we need to now, rather than have a bespoke model, were going to centralise everything, you know so that we know European offices, it’ll be here in the UK, it’ll all be here in Paris, in one location, that will change everything. Wow! You know kind of the disruption were going to put the organisation through for this customer experience gain, I’m not sure that this is something we’ve all got the appetite…
Ian: Well, the thing is, if it disrupts the organisation then ultimately it’s likely to disrupt the customer experience and it’s gonna…
Christopher: But customer experience can sometimes become a bit blinkered…
Ian: Become a bit blinkered.
Christopher: Especially when it says, well everybody does customer experience, so you’ve all got to do what we do, and it’s not you got a kind of, back to that fiddling around the trading table, back to that being a leader in customer experience, it’s about recognising how to do it as well as what you do.
Ian: Cool. Okay, I think we’ve run out of time. We’ve covered all six subjects! Awesome! Thank you very much Christopher. It’s been great as always, chatting with you Ian. I’ve really, really enjoyed it. It’s been a great experience. We’ll do again. I’m sure we’ll do it again.
The next subject is gonna be around culture, and I’m going to be having a conversation with Adrian Snook from Learning Accelerators about that particular area. So thank you very much, Christopher. Formal handshake. And I look forward to the next episode of CX Club. Thank you for watching. Cheers!